&myrlie". here is a preview. >> this is a time that is very much like medgar evers's time. what do they do when they were faced with the things things we did ? and what they did ? they voted. they voted anyway. and, because they understood that as king said, you may not be able to get the racist sheriff to stop being racist toward you or change his mind, you can vote them out. and, in the end, what people have to remember is the vote and using the vote is the strongest and most powerful tool that you have. we had a fantastic discussion and a terrific turnout at the apollo. be sure to watch joy reed and rachel maddow live at the apollo saturday night at 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc and streaming on the top. that is tonight's the reidout.

inside with jen psaki starts now. okay. this may come as a shock to you but donald trump actually didn't spend the day in court today. but, not to worry, he will be back in court tomorrow. plenty to watch, i'm sure. when it comes to the case in manhattan, he is, of course, innocent until proven guilty. that is how it works. he has already been found liable for business fraud and for sexual abuse. he is still facing criminal charges in washington, d.c. and in florida. and, in georgia. he was also just named and unindicted co-conspirator in arizona and in michigan. right now, the basic thrust of his campaign message is that presidents should be immune from prosecution so they can attempt a coup and commit crimes at will. that is basically where we are right now. and yet the leaders in the republican party are closing

ranks around their likely nominee, including many who clearly know better. consider this. just a few months ago, florida governor ron desantis basically mock people who bend the knee and kissed trumps ring. >> you can be the strongest, most dynamic, successful republican and conservative in america if you don't kiss that ring, he will try to trash you. you know what? you deserve a nominee that's going to put you first not himself first. >> turns out that one didn't exactly age well. just this weekend, governor ron desantis went down to miami to do the exact thing he roundly mocked once upon a time not that long ago. he reportedly met with trump to bury the hatchet and discuss fundraising for the upcoming general election campaign. that is just the most recent example of a leading republican, who at one point called out trump for being the uniquely immoral figure that he is before falling right back in line. take for example trumps a former attorney general, bill barr, who at one point and more

than willing to tell it like it is. >> he has a lot of people who follow him stubbornly and one of the interesting things is people that have worked with him, have seen him, have seen him behind the scenes, not many of them are supporting him. >> here is the thing, apparently there are a lot of republicans who seem to be tolerant of behavior they don't think it's appropriate for the chief executive, including, apparently now you, mr. bill barr. >> just to be clear, you are voting for someone who you believe tried to subvert the peaceful transfer of power, that can't even achieve his own policies, that light about the election, even after his attorney general told him that the election wasn't stolen, and as the former chief law enforcement officer in this country, you will vote for someone who is facing 88 criminal counts question >> the answer to any question is yes. >> the answer to the question

is yes? that was almost hard to watch. how about new hampshire governor chris sununu, who had this to say about trump on our show. >> you support him for president, even though you believe he contributed to an instruction, you support him for president even though you believe he's lying about the last election, you support him for president even if he's convicted in the manhattan case ? the answer to that is yes, correct? >> me and 51% of america. >> okay, governor. you were once capable of speaking truth about the leader of the party you remain in. that seemed to be the governor just a few weeks ago. what is a popular governor, who isn't even running for reelection supposed to do? what could you possibly do? lots of things is the answer. of course, there is mitch mcconnell, the longest-serving republican leader in senate history, who, in the week of

january 6, spoke powerfully about who exactly was to blame about the brazen attack on our democracy. it was very powerful. >> president trump's is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. >> that was mitch mcconnell on the floor of the senate. that was him then. this is rich mcconnell now. >> as the republican leader of the senate, obviously, i am going to support the nominee of our party. >> you have taken stands on issues you feel are of strong national security interests and morally imperative. >> what kind of influence what i have had question >> you are one of the most powerful republicans beat >> i am the republican leader of the senate. what we do here is try to make law. >> senator mitch mcconnell, give yourself a little more credit. you are the senate minority leader. you are quite powerful. you aren't a powerless observer of history sitting on the sidelines. some, what have we learned through all of this? well, we

have learned that people like mitch mcconnell, chris sununu, bill barr, and ron desantis know better. they have said it out loud indefinitely privately. they know who donald trump is, they know what he's done, they know what he's capable of. yet, they will still give him their full throated support in november. from time to time, you may find yourself wondering how donald trump continues to survive through indictments and criminal trials and insurrections and everything else. well, enablers like the ones i just mentioned are a big reason why. sarah matthews is the former white house deputy press secretary for donald trump, mckay comments is a staff writer for "the atlanta," who has written extensively about trumps enablers in the republican party. thank you for taking the time. sir, i want to start with you. as we are watching that, you have spoken out, and consistently spoken out, what goes to your head when you see people who know better defending trump, as they just did? >> it is really frustrating because, as you noted, some of the things i have said publicly about donald trump are horrible

and then they are going on and endorsing him. i can only imagine that the things they say privately. i've talked with a lot of republicans high up, elected officials and things like that who will pass them privately but many of them will not even same it publicly. >> and once bashed him publicly. >> these folks have bashed him publicly and still going forward and supporting him. a lot of times what they often say is that they are supporting him because of the policies, that they want the conservative agenda. and, where i get frustrated is that they are treating this like it is a normal election, a normal republican candidate and a normal democratic candidate. this could be anything further from the case. with donald trump, you have a candidate who try to overturn the last election, who spread conspiracy theories because he couldn't accept the fact that he lost the last election. those theories helped inspire an insurrection on our nation's capitol. to this day, donald

trump refuses to admit that he lost that election and has not shown any remorse for what happened on january 6th. so, of course, i would love for us to be having a debate of policy ideas in the 2024 election. but, when we have a candidate on the ballot who will not uphold the constitution, then i feel like i have to put policy aside and i want to support the person who is best suited to defeat donald trump. one thing i will note very quickly, on bill barr specifically in that interview that you should, he mentions this about policies and that is why he is supporting trump, even though he says he shouldn't be anywhere near the oval office. i wrote down a quote that i found from bill barr in may of 2023 where he said that if trump reclaimed the white house in 2024, "you may want his policies but trump will not deliver trump policies. he will deliver chaos. if anything, lead to a backlash that will set his policies much further back than they otherwise would be." even if you want a conservative agenda, trump is not the person to deliver that. >> heard the mouth of bill

barr. let me ask you, he did a bunch of interviews of this weekend. what struck me is when mitch mcconnell seems to be quite passive and he's not a passive person. he has temped more people to the supreme court than any minority leader in history. but, he also had very strong words about donald trump after january 6, to sarah's point. he's not going to be the leader anymore, he's not running. he doesn't have a big political future here. you've covered the republican party. what does he have to lose at this point ? >> watching that, i was thinking about a story that romney told me about mitch mcconnell when i was writing my viagra 300 romney. he said during the first senate impeachment trial, mitch mcconnell took mitt romney aside and leaned on him to join the rest of his republican colleagues to shutdown the trial, bring a quick end to it. mitt romney was a am going to

keep an open mind, i want to see the evidence. what he said was that mitch mcconnell, when he made his argument, didn't even bother to try to convince mitt romney that trump wasn't guilty of what he was being accused of. what is that he did was make this, he laid out this catastrophic scenario where he said, look, if we don't all circle around our guy, democrats are going to win the white house, they are going to win the senate, they are going to push through a radical agenda, the green new deal, he listed off the critic parities that he was scared of. and, i think that that helps you understand the psychology of somebody like mitch mcconnell. yes, there are craven political copulations being made by a lot of the people you just showed. yes, there are people who have taught themselves into the idea that they can do more good if they are reelected and so they are just kind of making that calculation. then there are people like mitch mcconnell, maybe bill barr falls into this category, who basically talk themselves into this idea that they just cannot let democrats have power , that as bad as trump is, as

dangerous as he is, as authoritarian as he might be, giving power to democrats is even worse. i do think there is this partisan mindset that frankly is present on both parties but especially right now in the trump era gop where it is so hard to break out of this idea that giving up power to the other side is the worst thing you can possibly do. >> it is really, you've made this point. the fear of gas stoves, being more afraid of that and what could and democracy, that defines where bill barr is coming from, right? >> i tweeted about that. that was something bill barr cited in that interview. he talked about conservative things like clean energy regulations from the biden administration, such as wanting to restrict gas stoves or electric vehicles, things like that. i don't agree with biden policies on that. i'm a republican. but, at the end of the day, to try to equate those things to something like the end of our

constitutional republic, in my eyes, if trump is elected in 2024, it is absurd. it is partisanship. i think that ultimately, i have said that i will put my country over my party. i've never voted for a democrat a date in my life. if my choices are donald trump and joe biden, i have no choice but to support biden because i cannot support someone like trump. >> the threats to democracy a good sunday threat of gas stove being taken away. mckay, you have written a lot about this and he wrote a piece earlier this year in "the atlantic," about what would happen with these enablers in an administration. there was a quote from hogan gately that stood out to me in this piece "i think it's going to be a concerted cultivated effort to ensure that the people that he puts in his next administration, they don't have to share his worldview, exactly, but they have to implement it." his defenders will argue, i assume, that is what staffers

do. how is this different? >> i think that is a fair point. i do think you should expect that a president's administration is more or less going to advance the agenda of the men who is elected. the difference is that donald trump doesn't have a totally coherent ideology. what trump cares about is obedience. that was, in reporting that piece, the thing i heard time and time again talking to people in trump's orbit was that he feels burned from his first administration by people who tried to thwart him, that he would have some kind of fleeting policy idea, something he wanted to do and his staff would get in the way. or they would resign or they would leave the white house and write books about him that were unflattering. so, this time around, he's not going to bother with the adults in the room, he's not going to get the well credentialed republicans like frankly bill barr. he's going to focus on people who are absolutely obedient to him, lapdogs, cronies, people who he knows he can control. and, i do think that will mean a substantive difference between the first trump administration, which was defined by chaos and upheaval and infighting and leaking and a second trump administration, which could have a lot of those

things but could also just have a lot of people in lockstep with him. depending on what you think of donald trump, that could be a lot more dangerous. >> sarah, these aldermen could learn a lot from you being consistently outspoken. i am grateful you are here. mckay, your book on mitt romney is excellent. people should read it to help understand the republican party here to thank you both so much for joining me today. appreciate it. congressman adam schiff is standing by in the studio. i will ask him about the new indictments facing trump allies and the former president a brazen call for absolute immunity. that conversation is coming up in just 60 seconds. stay right where you are. are.

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also an unindicted co- conspirator for trying to do the same thing in two states, two pretty important ones. arizona and michigan. that is not too much and he has also been charged for the same scheme in georgia. as my next guest notes, "all of these charged acts came together in the january 6th insurrection, and insurrection that trump incited to disrupt the a full count of electoral votes, and attempt to hold onto power propelled by the slides of illegal fake electors." yet, here we are at a point where it will be up to the justice system to decide if she somehow is above the law. as our friend andrew weissman reminded me yesterday, the fact that we are at this point meets our democracy is in a very perilous place. >> i know it sounds like hyperbole but i think your opening is so correct that we are essentially as neil put it, one vote away from the end of democracy as we know it, with checks and balances. >> a stark reminder. joining me now, democratic congress men adam schiff of

california. he is also a u.s. senate candidate. that week i read was part of a longer thread you posted about the immunity case and ended it with, "if the justice system sends the case back to the lower court as a means of calling, the flock is not with the constitution or the court itself but with the character of the justices serving on the court." there's a lot packed in there. talk to me about what you mean by that. >> what i mean is the justices know exactly what they are doing. they know the danger of the argument of immunity. essentially if a president is helping him from committing crimes and particular crimes while in office that are designed to hold onto power after losing that is the end. they can't go there. but, what they can do, if they have just a political focus on this, as they can delay. they can send this back to the lower court, they have already delayed, they have shown in the past they can move at great speed when they want to. when i want to make sure he could appear on ballots. based on the ability of secretary of state to take him

off the ballot they can move fast when i want to, they can delay when they want to. here, it seems they are very purposeful in their delay. i also found it quite ironic, i don't know if this point was brought to the justices attention, during the first impeachment trial, trump's lawyers argued that any act he undertook while in office that he believed was in the national interest or his own interest, for that matter, could not be impeached. he had to be prosecuted instead. here they are making exactly the opposite argument in the court. >> it is really, the character, the reference to character and the delay i think is so important for people to understand. trump is, we were listening to the hearings. trump supporters suggested the president could not be prosecuted for assassinating a political rival, and

assassination would be an official act. his lawyer said a president could be immune after ordering a coup. there were a lot of hypotheticals the justices presented and trump's legal team seemed to suggest it was off-line. what were you thinking when you are listening to the arguments on thursday ? >> the same thought we've had over and over again, which is are we really at this point? we cannot lose our sense of shock at just how low the bar has become. is it really possible that the supreme court is entertaining the idea that a president could not only commit a criminal act that could assassinate an opponent, could engage in a military coup and somehow this would not be subject to prosecution? there would be no accountability, is that really where we are? and, you started the segment, i'm so glad you did, talking about the enablers. the reason why this is all possible is because of these enablers. and, it might take away from all of this, the history of the justices when i was talking about character, it is true of bill barr and mitch mcconnell. if their oath of office doesn't

mean anything, if they refuse to give it any content, that is based on right and wrong and the truth, then, none of it works, the constitution is not strong enough if people who are taking that oath don't think it really means anything. >> to your point on the enablers, there are enablers everywhere, potential enablers everywhere, including in congress. we saw that happen, of course, around january 6. there are some new protections put in place but mike johnson, who is now the speaker of the house, was somebody who was an enabler. are you fearful that he could play that will with even more power this time around? >> without a doubt. i think the nightmare scenario is that instead of like the last election, where president biden won wide handling and in many battleground states, that it comes down to a single state and a very narrow margin. that is the most dangerous scenario. the good news, though, the positive scenario is if donald

trump is voted down again and repudiated again, i do think the mitch mcconnell, all of the neighbors on that list and decide they need to move on because he is a loser. they keep losing with him. they obviously won't move on with him because it is in the interest of the country. bill barr made that clear, that is not his priority. but, they, i think they will be forced to move on because he keeps causing their party to lose. and, we all have that obligation in november to make sure that the country can move on, that the republican party goes back to being a party of a conservative ideology, a place where liz cheney and adam kinzinger have a home. it is on all of us to think about an end to this terrible chapter of our history. >> there are members of the republican party threatening marjorie taylor greene, threatening to oust speaker

johnson. the real possibility is that an alternative could be worse. this is a crazy time we are living in. would you support him, vote for him as a speaker if that were up to you or do you think other democrats would? >> i think what would likely happen if they go forward with a motion to try to unseat him because he brought ukraine funding to the floor, you would have a significant enough group of democrats who simply walk away and don't vote for which frankly, would probably be the right result. i don't think it is the speaker any good to have democrats responsible for saving him. but, republicans would essentially be voting for the speaker. it is just that the vote threshold would be lowered so that the votes of the crazies, the marjorie taylor greene, are not preventing the house from governing in any way.

>> i wanted to briefly, we have one minute left. i'm asking about project 2025. that is a huge issue. one of the things i've been talking about is that it includes plans to dismantle the justice department and how important that is. you have set in so many different seats on all sides of the different branches of government. why is that so troubling? >> well, if you can effectively weapon eyes the justice department to go after opponents or, in the case of donald trump, make legitimate criminal charges against you go away, it means we have no rule of law. the whole country is founded on the idea that we are a nation of laws, that we are not a nation of an individual who holds power, that everybody is accountable. i would say this too because we are all desperate for good news, it is remarkable that in a courthouse in new york city, 12 ordinary citizens are going to decide whether a former president is guilty or innocent . that is still possible in this country. and, we should take pride in that and have some confidence in that. we want to make sure that it remains true in the future. >> absolutely. a jury of your peers.

thank you so much for joining me tonight. really appreciate it. up next, donald trump's criminal trial in new york resumes tomorrow. as we were just talking about, jury of your peers, with more testimony from michael cohen's former banker. we have very smart legal minds to help break it all down. dow. our selection is lit. order until may 12th for up to 30% off personalized jewelry, fresh styles, original decor - and other things moms actually love. when you need a gift that's as unique as she is... etsy has it. sometimes jonah wrestles with falling asleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself. get the rest to be your best with non-habit forming zzzquil. ♪ ♪

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banker to michael cohen is expected to return to the stand. gary farro was senior manager at first republic bank assigned to michael cohen in 2015, at least in part to his reputation and being able to and what he called "individuals that may be a little challenging." that is quite a banking specialty. in 2016, gary farro helped michael cohen set up a bank account for the shell companies to pay $130,000.00 to adult film star stormy daniels on the eve of the 2016 election in order to keep her quiet about an affair she said she had with then candidate trump a decade earlier. prosecutors say they have another hours worth of questions for the banker before donald trump's attorneys cross- examine him and then on thursday, judge juan merchan is said to hold another hearing over trumps violations of his gag order. judge juan merchan has yet to decide what, if any punishment, trump will face for more than a

dozen violations flagged by the prosecution, including for just last week. basically, this is yet another very busy legal week ahead. the thing i have two great lawyers joining me now, tristan snow, served as an assistant attorney general in new york. mellissa murray is a professor of law at nyu university of law school and host of the excellent legal podcast "strict scrutiny." tristan, there was a lot of questions about standard practices at first republic in the state of questioning with a couple of hours of questioning, like he produced email and difficult clear records before we got into the evidence. help explain why those questions, which felt mundane at times, why are they important? >> the word mundane is a good one to describe most of what happens at a trial, actually. we are trying to follow this as well as we can but those dramatic moments don't happen that often. there is a lot of, it's really less about firing rockets off at somebody and were about holding a wall or some sort of

structure. you are doing a lot of bricklaying and a lot of it is very boring to watch but it is very necessary if you are building a good case. that is what they were doing there. they were setting the stage for them to go to the documents and bringing gary farro in there at all is building the foundation, if you will, for them to have bigger witnesses to come, the ones that will get a lot more headlines, like michael cohen. >> just to continue the analogies, i love that, tristan, very helpful. we are all looking for fireworks in every moment of every trial. melissa, to his point, bricklaying can be a little dry, it can be hard to follow at times. looking back that following the money is always the thing, how do you think looking back to last week the prosecution has done, how have they been doing helping keep the jury to understand the importance of all of the specifics of this and what they are looking at as they look to the next stage of the trial ? >> your question presumes

looking at financial documents is always going to be dry and boring for most people but i am someone who reads supreme court opinions for a living so you can't get any more dry and boring and confusing than that. >> that is why you are here. >> that's why i'm here. what the prosecution has done here has focused on tying each of the stockings to a story. in many ways, they have some unfavorable witnesses here. michael cohen, famously has a lot of baggage. documents don't have baggage. documents don't lie. they tell the story. it is important that they leave these documents, weave them into the broader narrative about what happened about the kind of centrifuge that was going on, how did extended through the different parts of mr. thompson network, from his fixer to his friends in the media, to his fixers banker so that it all comes together and these documents are actually the witnesses doing the talking. >> it sounds like, they are predicting there's about an hour left. obviously, it can go more for the questioning of gary farro,

tomorrow, is it tomorrow? it is tomorrow. tristan, what do you expect they tried to spend her time on or what do you hope they spend their time on ? >> they have the prosecution and there i think the kicker is they need to, again, as melissa was just saying, we need to build this whole story. the thing is you are building this foundation but what you really need to present to the jury is the story because the, that is what will win the case, it will be are you building a better story than the other side. the story here is about all of the links that they want to. i think this is really key, the lengths that they went to to hide this. they were not hiding it. i think the prosecution, this is the point they need to make, this is not to hide it from trumps family, this is not to hide it from melania. he didn't need to have to set up a shell company and have these big legal invoices to hide it from her. they needed to paper through

the business at all. if it had come through the business checking account that she had no control over, no visibility on, she's not a signatory to any of those accounts, she never would have known the diwali needed to do was hide it from melania, all they had to do was cut a check directly to stormy daniels for one one of the business account and no one would have known. journalists would have "or it would have come out in investigations, it would have come out be a subpoena, something else. they did it to hide it from the american people. now, where trumps lawyers, what they are going to do with gary farro, they are probably going to identify that gary farro never had anything to do with donald trump. that is the main thing they will try to go out . the whole theory of the case for them is that michael cohen went rogue. the thing is that all of the other witnesses to the prosecution is bringing to bear, including starting with david pecker is to say this was a whole concerted effort and donald trump was at the middle of it. >> all of these witnesses are corroborating. before we go, melissa, i want to ask about the upcoming gag court hearing. prosecutors are arguing that trump has violated the gag order more than a dozen times. most listening would agree. including last week, of course.

the gag order was so necessary, why do you think judge juan merchan is waiting so long ? that is what we are all wondering. >> these orders take a lot of time to craft and determining whether someone has complied with them takes even longer and it takes even more time when you have a high profile defendant as this one. were it any other ordinary defendant, we would've had a very clear answer about the gag order and it would have resulted in that defendant being jailed for being in contempt of court. we have a defendant who is running for president of the united states, who is a former president and constantly goading this judge to go up to the line. this is a game of chicken between judge juan merchan and donald trump. judge juan merchan doesn't want to make donald trump a martyr

for his millions of followers, nor does he want to imperil the jurors and the prosecution and the witnesses here. this is a very delicate line that he's promising and i'm not surprised we haven't seen a ruling just yet. >> so much to follow. you will both be working hard and i will be watching you both. thank you so much for taking the time this evening. i appreciate it, tristan snow and mellissa murray. coming up, lindsey graham shrugs off the national enquirer's catch and kill scheme and instead claims a lot of people do this sort of thing. i have a feeling like like what great has lachlan cartwright has some comments. the number two at "the national enquirer" joins me, next. next. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. thanks to skyrizi i'm playing with clearer skin. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses.

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during trumps criminal trial in new york last week, the former publisher of "the national enquirer", david pecker, said he helped trumps campaign by buying the rights to negative stories about trump to keep those stories from coming out, a practice called "catch and kill." very wild stuff. we learned a lot about it during this trial last week. if you asked a trump ally like lindsey graham, there's absolutely nothing to see here. >> david pecker, who ran "the national enquirer"'s parent company testified he paid to catch and kill stories about trump, specifically to help his presidential campaign. you don't have any concerns about that? >> you know, apparently a lot of people do this. arnold schwarzenegger, tiger woods. i think the whole thing is a crock. >> tiger woods is not running for president and the allegation is not about that.

>> i think the whole thing is bs. >> the whole thing is bs, apparently, according to senator lindsey graham. basically he wants you to believe this practice is common. is not the only one. during the opening statements at the trial last week, trump lawyer also try to make the same false claim, he said, "this sort of thing happens regularly." i can tell you, someone who worked on three presidential campaigns and for two presidents, that the practice david pecker described in court is not at all normal, it does not happen. i have a feeling my next guest agrees. joining me now, someone who have worked both for "the national enquirer" and for media organizations that do not operate like that, lachlan cartwright, executive editor at "the national enquirer" during the 2016 campaign, he is now special correspondent for "the hollywood reporter." there's a lot to date and about last week and we will do that. i want to ask you, because you've worked for a lot of media organizations about what lindsey graham, a u.s. senator, by the way, said. basically, there's nothing wrong with a catch and kill

scheme and a lot of people do it. >> the difference is that a lot of people aren't running for the highest office in the land, jen. i think back to my tenure at american media, which was a three-year time and i could probably count on both ends of the amount of catch and kills that went on. and that includes the incident with donald trump, before donald trump. i think in david testimony, people might got the impression that this was almost a weekly practice, that we were catching and killing stories for celebrities and politicians and businessmen every week. that is just totally not the case. we were, you know, chasing yours, trying to break stories. that is the reason i went there, just sort of weeks before this deal is hatched, i break the hulk hogan rant that hulk hogan was kicked out of the world wrestling hall of fame. we were doing real newsgathering and, as we've now learned, this august 2015 meeting happens and david

pecker makes this deal to be the eyes and ears. this was not normal practice and it is not something that was going on for anyone else that was running for president. >> or the overwhelming majority of media organizations or any white house or campaign i've ever worked on. let me ask you about last week. you knew a lot about what had happened. you obviously knew, of course, the prime big witness from last week. as you were listening to that testimony from david pecker, was there anything that surprised you that you heard in that testimony? what really struck out to you ? >> the first thing, one of the first things that surprised me was, i said on this program two weeks ago, that i was looking forward to looking david pecker in the eyes and dylan howard and we learned that dylan howard won't be in court, you would be testifying because of a spinal injury. that was something that i wasn't expecting.

but, as i said on this program two weeks ago, the underlying matter here is that this was a case of election interference. david pecker confirmed that, that this was a scheme to influence the 2016 election in forensic detail. david pecker is an accountant. sitting back in court, watching him and listening to him, i was incredibly taken with just how meticulous in detail he was able to lay this out for the jury and i know the story very well, i am vested, i worked there, i'm covering it for "the hollywood reporter." i thought to myself "every day, he is doing a brilliant job and just setting the table of what actually went on here. >> there were some text messages from dylan howard that were talked about. of course, last week. is there, what do you think, if he were to take the stand, people would learn? is there more people would learn that we didn't win last

week? >> where dylan howard will play a role is when we get to michael cohen and the stormy daniels situation. david pecker has visibility and a lot of this. as david pecker himself testified last week, when it gets to the stormy daniels matter, which, again, this is where the timing and the timeline is crucial your , that is going on right after the access hollywood tape, where the campaign is panicking, they are worried about the impact of that tape on female voters and stormy daniels comes on the scene. david pecker, in his own words in court last week, says i'm not a bank. he had already done the two other payoffs. the doorman and karen mcdougal and now here is jeremy stormy daniels, she wants 130 k and david pecker says no, they have to handle it i.e. michael cohen and donald trump. he tells dylan howard, let them deal with it. dylan howard almost goes rogue here and he himself gets a very

intimately involved in helping the situation and so when the defense is going to be attacking michael cohen's credibility and calling him a liar, dylan howard will be able to back up a lot of that testimony. that is why he would have been key here in the text messages, that was something that surprised me, the text message to keith davidson, to keith davidson to dylan howard on the night of the election, when keith davidson sent messages saying what have we done? i was at a pub in manhattan watching the election results and thinking to myself what have i done? dylan howard. >> thank you, lachlan cartwright, always so insightful. i look forward to talking to you more in the future. thanks for joining me this evening. coming up, i owe mitt romney an apology. that is next after a quick break. ck break.

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there are a few things we in this country agree upon

nowadays. but, love of dogs is about as close as you get. that is probably why it was a bit of a scandal, back in 2012, when with and mitt romney had once strapped his dog, shamus, to the roof of his car for a 12 hour drive to canada. of course, mitt romney was widely ridiculed and as press secretary at the time to the obama campaign, i admit i was critical myself. well, i still wouldn't defend strapping a dog to the roof of a car, i now feel i owe the senator a bit of an apology. i'm sorry, senator romney. that is no longer, far from it, the worst dog related to political scandal in american history. governor kristi noem of south dakota takes that people, she seems to be on every short list for trump's vice president and she recently told a story about her dog in a forthcoming book. according to "the guardian," which obtained an excerpt of the book, it goes something like this. kristi noem had a family dog named cricket, a wire haired pointer who was 14 months old.

cricket was just a puppy but according to kristi noem, she was on trainable and had what she calls an "aggressive personality." apparently cricket it, attacked chickens. when kristi noem took cricket on a hunting trip, she went out of her mind with excitement, chasing all of the birds and having the time of her life. i think most of us would agree that it sounds like normal behavior for a puppy, right? if you are unfamiliar with wired haired pointers, they look like this. they are known to have a lot of energy. that was apparently too much for kristi noem, who writes, "i hated that dog." rather than find cricket a new home. you can do that, or bring cricket to a shelter or seek out a dog rescue group, kristi noem led cricket to a gravel pit and shot her and she reportedly wrote, "it was not a

pleasant job but it had to be done." that story is horrifying but it is also in relating and probably not in the way kristi noem intended. as the guardian reports, she thought bragging about shooting her dog would show "her willingness in politics as well as in south dakota like to do things that are difficult, messy, and ugly. " her story triggered widespread outrage from across the political spectrum, including from people like megyn kelly, who pointed out that kristi noem has "managed to do the impossible and unite democrats and republicans alike and the anger for this woman who shot her puppy in the face. the fact that she thought this would make her look tough shows how clueless she is." for once, megyn kelly and i agree. for her part, all through the negative condemnation and criticism, governor kristi noem hasn't expressed remorse, she hasn't apologized. she has doubled down, amazingly, saying, "people are looking for leaders who are authentic and don't shy away from tough challenges ." i guess there is nothing more authentic than shooting your

dog. it shouldn't be a challenge for governor kristi noem or anyone to resist getting a puppy. this is what we are talking about in 2024 . i will give her one thing, she certainly has revealed her authentic self. we've got some very exciting news to share after a very quick break. stay right where you are. are. our biggest challenge? uncertainty. hidden fees, surcharges... who knows what to expect! turn shipping to your advantage. keep it simple...with clear, upfront pricing. with usps ground advantage®. ♪♪ when you have chronic kidney disease, there are places you'd like to be.

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before we go tonight, a quick mind or my new book "seymore," is coming out next week on may 7th. i can't believe it.

it has stories about people you probably know, joe biden, barack obama, and many others. it is really a book about how to become a better communicator. i'm convinced everybody can do that. i will be in new york city on may 8th for a conversation with my friend and colleague lawrence o'donnell. we'll talk about the book and i'm sure we will spend some time on all of the news happening in the world right now. there's quite a bit. there are tickets available. we will share the information on the shows social media channels. it is at the 92nd street why in manhattan and it starts at 7:30 p.m. next week. i hope to see you there. that does it for me tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. hi, rachel. >> hi, jen, very excited for the new book, can't wait to get my copy of it. you have not given me a copy. >> i'm giving you one. it is coming to you tomorrow. it is going to tomorrow. >> thank you. hank you.